Listen to the episode

Links 

Thank you to today’s sponsor LDH Scissors for sending us their 9″ Midnight Edition Lightweight Scalloped Pinking Shears. Find more at LDHscissors.com. 

The Blasian Wardrobe: Fusing Vietnamese & Xhosa Fashion (& A SEWING PATTERN}
Khensani Mohlatlole – YouTube
Khensani on Instagram @okbaddiek
Khensani Mohlatlole | finding the Southern African fashion archive | Patreon
Khensani Substack

Black Women Stitch
Black Women Stitch| Sewing ?Creative Liberation (@blackwomenstitch)

Resources

ALL ABOUT TRADITIONAL WEAR (XHOSA) 

Adire Cloth of the Yorubas – Adire African Textiles

Cassava resist dyeing: Traditional dyeing techniques in a new environment [PowerPoint presentation]

Chinatown Pretty (@chinatownpretty) – San Francisco 

Nigerian Menswear – boubou and agbada | Fashion History Timeline 

Transcript

Ada
Thank you to our friends at LDH Scissors for sponsoring this episode.

Ada
Welcome to the Asian Sewist Collective Podcast. The Asian Sewist Collective is a group of Asian people from around the world brought together by our shared appreciation for fiber and textile arts and our desire to see more Asian representation in the sewing community.

Nicole
In this podcast we explore the intersection of identities and our shared sewing practice as we create a space for Asian Sewists and our allies.

Ada
I’m your co-host, Ada Chen, and I’m recording from Denver, Colorado. Denver is the traditional territory of the Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho peoples. I’m a Taiwanese American marketer turned entrepreneur, and these days you’ll find me running my natural skincare brand, Erleia. That’s E-R-L-E-I-A. Find us on social media at Erleia Skin. Most importantly for this podcast, you can find my sewing at i.hope.sew on Instagram.

Nicole
And I’m your co-host, Nicole. I’m recording outside of Chicago, Illinois, the original homelands of the Council of the Three Fires, the Ojibwe, the Potawatomi, and the Odawa people. I’m a Philippine American lawyer who loves to sew, and you can find me on Instagram at Nicoleangelinesews.

Ada
Okay, welcome listeners. If you’ve looked at the title of this podcast, you will know that this is a collab episode and we have a special guest. So today we are collaborating with Lisa from Black Women’s Stitch. Lisa, would you like to introduce yourself to any listeners who might not be familiar with your work?

Lisa Woolfork
Hello, everybody. I’m Lisa from Black Women Stitch in the Stitch Please podcast, where we center and celebrate Black women, girls and femmes in sewing. And I am so delighted to be here once again with the Asian Sewist Collective.

We got together once to talk with Jen Hewitt, and that was such a great time. And so I am honored to be here today to talk with another fantastic creator who is doing something pretty fabulous. So I cannot wait for us to get together on that.

Ada
So our special guest today Khensani who is a South African writer and creator who focuses on fashion and sustainability. She makes all sorts of content about who we were, where we come from, and what the hell to wear for it all. And that is a direct quote from one of her social media handles or her Patreon. And Khensani can you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Khensani
Gosh, I wish I knew where that quote was from, because that’s great, actually.

Ada
You wrote it.

Khensani

Yeah, I can’t believe I forgot that. so I’m Khensani Mohlatlole from South Africa, born and raised in Johannesburg. I am a beauty school dropout of sorts, did the fashion school stint for a little bit, um um and then had the

Khensani

The very interesting experience of being very bored during the pandemic and having a lot of time on my hands and then got really, really into fashion history and specifically African and Southern African fashion history is I feel like these are quite not under researched, but sort of under addressed or not super accessible topics at least in sort of the public domain. And yeah, for the past like four or five years, I’ve just been doing a lot of sort of practice-based research, trying to get a better understanding of historical Africans and their approach to dress and clothing making and how we can retain some of these practices, particularly now on the modern age when we have so many issues around like the climate crisis and fast fashion and how we can sort of use these for a better future.

Ada

Amazing. Is that, I don’t think I actually went back far enough. Is that how you taught yourself to sew or did you learn from someone else during the pandemic?

Khensani

No, so actually I taught myself to sew when I was like, I think in my final year of high school, I had decided that like I really wanted to be a fashion designer. So  I convinced my dad to buy me a sewing machine like while we were buying groceries. And then also I just like only read the sewing machine manual and I decided that was enough to learn. And I just started putting things together like no concern about grain lines or and patterning, et cetera. I was just like today I will make top.

Khensani

And thoroughly messing up that machine also, that poor thing that did not deserve half the things I put through that. And then the next year I did actually formally go to fashion school where I learned in a more formal way. But before that, my only other sort of like fashion education was my one aunt had taught me how to crochet, but I hate counting. So I’ve never really enjoyed that very much.

Ada

The plight of many sewists.

Khensani

Yeah, don’t vibe with math.

Nicole

Math and counting is something that was unexpected when I first started to learn how to sew.

Khensani

Right? They never tell you. They’re like, it’s so glamorous and creative and then like you’re doing geometry all day. and

Nicole

Fractions, yeah.

Lisa Woolfork

Very much so.

Nicole

So the reason we’re talking today is because, at least in part, you launched your first pattern, which Lisa so adeptly spotted on Instagram and shared with us, and we’re really excited to talk about it. Can you tell us a little bit about this pattern and your inspiration for it?

Khensani

So last year I had done a project. So a very big part of a lot of like stereotypically African design is the textile manipulation. So whether it’s like prints or dyeing or the embroidery and the beading. And I wanted to also start figuring out what are other sort of like codes or signs of like what makes and a garment African outside of these things. So I kind of was like zero in trying to look for like, what are the silhouettes that are like very unique to the continent? Because A lot of what you get, especially in like modern African fashion today, I will say is that people usually will take sort of a like Western silhouette of design. So it’s like a blazer, it’s a pencil skirt.

And then just re-imagining that with like Ankara or Shwe Shwe or Bark cloth, etc. Which is fine, but I think there’s an entire design language that we’re missing out on because we only really focus on that. In doing that, I was doing like a lot of visual research and trying to look for like garments that are quite unique that I don’t see in other places in the world as much, or at least I thought I didn’t see in other places in the world as much.

And then one of the ones I honed in on is these sort of like apron-like tops, ncebetha that are worn by Xhosa women just going keep calling them apron tops and tradition like historically they were sort of just like it’s just more like a piece of cloth that sort of hung around the chest around the waist and then over time they sort of start to take shape and then i started making that and then i decided to pair it with like some wide leg pants and in the middle of that i realized that it was quite um of the overall effect so you’ve got this like high collared sort of tight fitting bodice that hangs and it’s open at the side and you’ve got these wide leg pants and it’s very, very similar to what see with like Vietnamese Ao Dai And then yeah, I just sort of started getting on a little bit of a quest of trying to think about exploring that because also before that  Ao Dai, I was already thinking about sort of connections between south Africa and Indonesia.

And so like sort of South Africa’s like signature textile, so to speak is shweshwe, which is derived from a bunch of like Indonesian resist dyeing techniques, particularly like batik practices. And I was interested to figure out if maybe part of the reason why a lot of like Black South Africans had resonated so much with this fabric. was maybe because it sort of called back to something we might have had in our own history.

Also got me into a longer thing about just sort of a longer legacy of like indigo cloth in Africa in general, if you look at things like Adire West Africa. But then I was looking at a lot of stuff in Indonesia and then also realizing a lot of other visual similarities between like Javanese clothing and then things you see here Southern Africa. And then just started thinking about the fact that like, have these sort of connections mostly formalized through like colonization, the Dutch East India company, you know, like bringing things back and forth, but then there’s also some things we might be aware of and might not be aware of that we also share in terms of like the way we like to put things together or how we’re constructing them or our attitudes towards that.

So for now, so for my most recent project, I was like, I kind of want to dive into that a bit more, especially because I don’t think there’s ever been like a historical Vietnamese-South African connection.

Khensani

And I thought that was quite a funny thing to explore. So yeah, I was looking at a lot of like, East Asian sort of sewing techniques and different motifs, you know, like, I mean, I’ve been absolutely amazed at all the stuff that happens with binding. It’s so cool. Like amazing stuff there. because there’s also a bit of that here. There’s a lot of like applied, um, trim of like striping, et cetera. And I was like, that’s such an interesting similarity. that was, yeah, the first pattern was sort of just kind of blending the similarities between this Xhosa garment and then this Vietnamese one.

Ada

I love it I’m going to give credit where credit is due. Lisa is actually the one who flagged this. Would you like to share a little bit? I guess, Lisa, would you like to tell the story about how you tagged us in this and then our chat afterwards?

Lisa Woolfork

Oh my goodness. I saw this and I fell in love with the approach. I like the way that Khensani talks about design language and how we are missing a design language when what you do is take Western silhouettes and apply fabrics from other parts of the world or different maybe manipulation techniques, but the silhouette remains the same.

And when she said we need to have conversations about cultural comparative or cultural collaborative conversations that de-center whiteness, that de-center the Western. And I was like, yes, you are correct. And I know some amazing people who would be perfect for this.

Lisa Woolfork

So when I saw it, I tagged, I think I tagged both of you all individually and I might’ve tagged the show as well.because I was like, I want them to see this because I thought that you all had done an episode on the, Ao Dai all read, think you’d already done one before. And I know you do such really great deep dives and your episodes are so beautifully researched. And I was like, I think they’re going to love this. And then I want to come. So let’s do a collaborative episode.

Lisa Woolfork

And that’s that that was how it started for me. But the way that Khensani was prioritizing blending these two amazing cultural vocabularies, fashion histories, textile languages, to make something so beautiful, but also something that seems very familiar to both cultures. Just felt like this is an exciting example of what happens when you stop starting with white. That’s one of my things. I always ask, like, what happens when you stop starting with white? And this is an example of what could happen. So I saw that. I thought it was amazing. And then I just love bomb, tagged y’all all over. And then I think I might have DM’d, goodness forbid, you don’t see the tag.

If I had your phone number, which I think I might, I think I might have wanted to text you personally, but I said, calm down. Lisa, give them 15 minutes. to recognize that they’ve been tagged on Instagram and then give them 15 more minutes to realize that you also DM them before you abuse the privilege of having their personal phone numbers.So calm down.

Nicole

You can text me anytime, Lisa. You have my permission.

Lisa Woolfork

So so that’s that’s how I got here. so I’m thankful for y’all helping to make my dream come true. So yay.

Nicole

Well, thank you for connecting us. We really appreciate it. And this is really awesome. And so wanted to talk about your pattern a little bit because you’ve you’ve shared the impetus for doing the research between cross-cultural collaboration or at least the outgrowth of maybe the natural outgrowth of the evolution of fashion between areas of Asia and Africa. And I want to talk about the i apron, the apron top that you have made. So what are some of the elements that were unique to the South African culture in this particular garment, but that you discovered also had similarities in particularly, like specifically Vietnam.

Khensani

yeah, I think the first thing is sort of the like application of like a fabric trim, I would say. so yeah, with a lot of like South African, like African so two weird things is that i there is a lot of, sort of like, there’s lots of like use of like cotton tape of binding, and even sort of like i love, there’s like a lot of beautiful adornment that’s just done with like buttons and a lot of like little found objects.

Khensani

And then I’ve also seen, not just with like some of the stuff I’ve seen in like Vietnamese design, but it’s also looking at and like Indian Kantha practices as well. And also like Japanese, like Shibori and… what’s the other one? Boro techniques. I love the idea of also just like a lot of, there’s sort of idea also in terms of like you’re kind of reinforcing fabric. Cause I think if you look at both sort of a lot of East Asian and African cultures, and there’s a lot of like clothing that’s quite flat.

Khensani

So like a lot of your Western clothing is quite like 3D. Like, you know, if you have a corset, it can like kind of stand on its own. When you lay it flat, it still has form. But if you had to like put a kimono on the ground, it’s like level with the ground. same there. But then i was also interested in how people will add shape to a garment or just we just give it strength through all of this like decoration and trim. which before I had thought was purely for ornamentation, but there’s quite a lovely functional aspect to it.

And then what are some other things I really enjoyed? I mean, obviously there’s a lot of shared, I mean, this wasn’t relevant to my project now, but hopefully I’ll have time to do it soon, but also the sort of dyeing and printing practices.

So something I found quite interesting was like the use of, there’s this lovely lady on YouTube, I wish I could remember her name, but she did this great video where she was making a like wheat paste she was using to prepare bindings so she could get it like to shape and like hold form and stuff. I’ve seen similar things happen in Nigeria with cassava paste.

Khensani

So I thought that was so interesting. And I think they’re both sort of similar plants. You get similar effects. And I thought that was quite interesting, the use of like this very domestic like kitchen objects it’s quite integral to like the engineering of a lot of this but yeah for this one right now is mostly just sort of the applied trim so looking at like binding and like sort of striping and stuff which i still want to do a bit more of would say here that a lot of that is i mean i don’t think it gets done to the like really beautiful detail you see with like a lot of beautiful like east Asian stuff

Khensani

But I think they’d be of something very interesting maybe in the future to explore, especially like beading motifs, like imagine rendering that in binding or something like that. Yeah. Does that answer your question? I feel like I went on a tangent now.

Nicole

No, it does. We want to know about the details and what you found between the two. And it sounds like based on the video that you watch and listeners will definitely have a link in our show notes for it. And it was a really fun video to watch you creating this garment and it’s nice to hear the insight that you had while you were making it as well. Cause I think what you’d said was in your video, when you’ve, we’ll go back to how you started the project, but when you finished it, folks at the event were saying it was the cute Asian dress. And so throughout the process, you had already kind of thought about, you know, realized that there are a lot of these similarities.

So folks go watch that video. It’s a lot of fun to watch. and But can you just give us like a really short preview of that construction process? So you repurposed a lace curtain, you had some decisions to make about underlining or lining the bodice, but yeah, you got just a couple minute spiel so folks can come go check out that video.

Khensani

Yeah, a hundred percent. So I had actually made the garment in like 12 hours, maybe less, cause I had an event the next day, which yeah, very unwise. We’ve got, had old lace curtain that I decided to use as sort of like the base and then because it’s quite sheer, I sort of double, I did like a double layer for both the front and back panels.

Um, and and then also again, it’s like really sheer. I had like an actual, just a scrap of calico that I think I had cut a circle skirt out of before. which gave it a really beautiful curve that kind of worked for the design. And then, yeah, there was a lot of binding, like all the edges are bound and also had to bind the edges of like the calico that I had applied. else was there? I had also, I mean, yeah, I was running out of time, but I had very big ambitions to do a whole bunch of like beading as well. Just really embellish that. But it’s like a really quick project because it’s basically about like three seams. It’s basically just your center back seam and then your shoulder seams and that’s pretty much the garment done.

Khensani

I mean I did mine with eyelets but like there’s also the option to do like ties or buttonholes etc which is also why I really like this is like a pattern that I’d release because then it’s like I think it’s quite approachable for anybody then also lots of it’s I mean I think it’s really hard to mess something like this up it’s it’s quite forgiving in the fit is something I quite gravitate to more to like it’s yeah quite a simple one and it was just more a lot of the work was more just like yeah just trying to be as thorough as possible with like constructing something really well, even though I was in a time crunch and making sure I was like you know finishing a scene when it needed to be finished and putting in the proper closure, which are things I tend to usually want to really like fast forward through, especially when you know time is running out or it’s getting really late.

Lisa Woolfork

I really liked how you used the lace curtain and the domesticity of it. And it reminds me of what you talked about with the cassava paste or the wheat paste, something you might make up in your kitchen. And then you can also grab a curtain as well from your kitchen. And I remember someone asking, well, lace is very European. It’s very European. and you were saying… Yes, lace is traditionally European. There’s other cultures that also have lace work traditions that are not European. But this particular curtain panel, for you, it had a very African origin as well because you were like, this is what my grandma had just hanging up in the… in the kitchen window. So could you talk a little bit about that particular piece being, because I think you described it as a neutral base. And someone was like, no, no, it’s not neutral. It’s European. But the way you reclaimed it and was like, well, not my fault Europeans came here.

My grandma needed some curtains and that’s what I always saw. So I don’t know what what is your, that I thought it was, cause I’ve seen similar curtains as well. Like we have those in the U.S. they’re totally machine manufactured. They’re not like hand tatted by, you know, people that have been doing it for generations. I don’t know what, what was, I thought you made a great response. But do you want to elaborate a little bit?

Khensani

Yeah, I mean, yeah, like, yeah, like I said, I think even like when I’ve spoken, because I had that same lace curtain, I used to use it whenever I was like going a party, I’d always wear it as a veil. 

Lisa Woolfork

All right. I have seen some photos of you with that. Yes. yes

Khensani

Yeah, yeah. And every person I’ve spoken to, like, whether they’re like black or colored or like Indian, etc. Everyone’s just like, dude, did you take this from my gran? Like, I promise you we have this. Okay. um And that’s, to me, is quite, yeah, I liked that, quite neutral. And I think also there’s something about when you’re, like, working, there’s something I think with a lot of textiles, like, even if it is sort of specifically European, but, like, part of it being so widespread, I feel like a lot of people have that thing where it’s, like, your grannies and your aunties, like, hold on to these very, like, they’re, like, the sort of stereotypical things that you kind of, in your head, are, like, material. Like, if I see, like, a piece of calico, like, in my head, that’s fabric, as opposed to.

Lisa Woolfork

Right.

Khensani

You know, I don’t know if I saw a really nice piece of wool, then I could be like, oh, a scarf or something. And i just thought as I just thought it was quite cool to work with something that like, I think to me, at least I think everyone has interacted with in some way. Like it’s been in a kitchen, it’s been in the bathroom. You’ve seen it in someone’s really kitschy bedroom or house or something like that. And also, I mean, from every from, yeah, from also the interactions i’ve had with everyone else, everyone was very much also just like, yeah, my gran has this right now.  Yeah It’s kind of like ah a plastic covered sofa as well.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes.

Khensani

And I like that also wherever you are in the world, like somebody’s granny has this.

Lisa Woolfork

It looked very familiar to me. When I saw it, I was like, oh, those are cafe curtains so or something like that. Like it felt very familiar. So I just wanted to acknowledge that. i thought that was really great.

Ada

It’s got to be the lace curtains, the plastic covered sofa, and maybe remote, and then the cookie biscuit tin as your, like, catch-all tin.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes.

Khensani

Yes! Oh my goodness!

Lisa Woolfork

Yes. Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Yes, that’s right.

Khensani

Yeah, you’re like so excited for a snack and it’s just thimbles and needles, like…

Lisa Woolfork

Yes, exactly.

Ada

That doesn’t taste good.

Lisa Woolfork

That’s no, not at all. That’s like our first lesson in deceit. Like, you know, you go to your grandma’s house and oh oh my gosh, cookies.

Lisa Woolfork

I love it. Oh, it’s a box of buttons. um Yes.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes.

Ada

I was going to just chime in and say I love a good upcycle. And I love that you wore this lace curtain out before that. But it is also like I was I was going to add that it is Asian granny coded, but it just is everybody granny coded. And if you look at this Instagram called @ChinatownPretty, it’s these photos of mostly like grannies on the street just rocking whatever like, do there’s usually layers, I’m gonna be honest, there’s usually layers, there’s sometimes lace, there’s sometimes shiny stuff in there, and I just saw, I thought of that exactly when you said, you you’re cutting into the curtain, you’re like, this is really granny-coated, and was like, yeah, if I look at this Instagram account of just granny outfits, it’s not the same, but it is in my head.

Ada

I think, I mean, on the topic of social media, so you’ve talked about sewing for social media as a concept, both in the creation of the stress in the 12 hours, which i that’s amazing. Can’t believe was all you spent on it, right?

Ada

So fast.

Lisa Woolfork

Oh my gosh. So fast.

Khensani

Oh, I’m not ok. 

Ada

Thank you for admitting that.

Khensani

No, no, no, no, that did not end well for me.

Ada

Like, did you crash really hard afterwards? I guess my question is more like, can you share with our listeners a bit more about this idea? Because it’s something we’ve been talking about as well. And how you feel about kind of selling for social media versus not.

Khensani

Yeah, I mean, it’s so tough because I’ve been able to kind of build a little bit of a career out of doing that. But it’s also tough because I think sewing is actually the kind of thing you are meant to be doing by yourself or like, or not so much by yourself, but it is like, it’s not a very glamorous process and there’s so much thinking you’re doing all the time and there’s so many calculations and like, I know I’ve met people who’ve been sewing for like five decades and even there, like sometimes I can still put in the sleeve the wrong way.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes

Khensani

you know, like there’s just, even when you’ve mastered this, it’s just, it’s a very intense process. But at the same time, it’s also, it’s also really fun to share those kinds of things as well. Cause i think a lot of us are probably sewing at home all the time and like crashing out, i’m not realizing we’re having very common experiences. And that sometimes like your sewing machine does hate you. It’s like, it’s not you, you know, but it does come in, but at the same time then, because you are doing this in a very sort of like performative way, it does kind of come with a few expectations. Like,there are multiple times where like I’ll be making something and i am like I’ll be like just stuck in place with the thought that, like oh my god, no one is going to like this. This video is going to flop. or like Or maybe I think that, OK, what is the thing that’s going to be the most like endearing to someone watching? Because like maybe for me personally, when I wear the item, I care more that something is comfortable, maybe more than I care about like the buttons being placed evenly apart or something. But if I’m going to be posting it, I’m going to be opening myself up to that kind of scrutiny.

And then also justand there’s also just sort of a very like a like a very sort of like fast fashion approach that i think has happened to a lot of online sewing culture like a lot of people i mean granted i just did this but you know a lot of people you know like trying to say something in a day or like um the ones i hate the most are when it’s like oh i’ve i’ve made a ah thousand dollar garment for like five bucks. Because in all of that everyone is always forgetting the fact that like your labor is valuable the time you spent on it, the fact that you have the knowledge to make that, like, that’s also what’s driving up the cost. And you can kind of see that also feed into how people will then also like undersell themselves they are the kind of people who go on to make garments.

Khensani

And then also when you have like ah an entire audience who’s like, okay, well, if user so-and-so can do this in like five hours for $5, why would I ever pay anyone a decent amount of money to do that? Like, why would I care if someone gets a living wage? Because I can see how easy this is and I can see how quickly this can happen and, like, you know, that kind of throwaway thing. And it’s it’s very hard because these are very, like, short-form… platforms and I mean I would hate to watch a video that ah ah documented the entire process like all 10 hours of someone sewing sounds absolutely miserable.

But you know so yeah it’s quite hard you want to like sort of think about the ways to also show the fact that there is like a lot of time and effort even for something as simple as a t-shirt or someone making a pillowcase and that’s deserving of like money and respect and value but you also want to make it fun and exciting for people to watch you know And say yeah.

Lisa Woolfork

I like when you said, if I can watch somebody make this $1,000 dress for $5, why would I ever buy a $1,000 dress? And it’s like, well, because you can’t sew. That’s why.

Khensani

That’s a good point.

Lisa Woolfork

That’s why. That’s why you would do it. It doesn’t matter how fast I am. It doesn’t matter how fast any of us are. If that person doesn’t know how to sew, it will not be that fast for you. We do it well because we have expertise that these other people don’t have.

Khensani

Mm-hmm.

Lisa Woolfork

There’s a difference in watching somebody’s sewing video and critiquing it. and actually making something. And what I found is the folks that are also makers, we are not the ones that are going to undervalue it. We are not the ones that are going to say, oh, designers and this leisure brands and luxury brand brands, they don’t deserve the money they get, which I kind of believe.

But it’s not because of the effort that goes into it. But yeah, I think it’s because we do have these special skills. And I think that sewing is a critical apparatus that shows us a lot of different things.

A lot of the way that you talk about all the thoughtfulness that goes into sewing and how it really is typically one person at one machine doing one thing at a time. And what you created is you go over the entire process and it feels really miraculous. even though I know how to sew, I love seeing you put all this together and all of that effort. And I’m just I marvel because I’m like, oh, not me.That is not what I am going to do, but I am going to repost. I’m going to admire, and I’m going to see if she wants to be on a podcast. Because beading the hand-beading all of it, it’s just such… It’s so deliberate and so done with such care it really feels like a beautiful piece that you create that is not just beautiful, but that it has so much cultural resonance and knowledge and just layers of meaning. And I think that is quite special.

Khensani

Oh, thank you.

Ada
Thank you to our friends at LDH Scissors for sponsoring this episode. They sent us some goodies in exchange for an honest review, and today we are looking at the 9-inch lightweight scalloped pinking shears from the Midnight Edition collection.

Nicole
I want to talk about the pinking shears because full disclosure, I already own a pair of LDH all metal pinking shears and they’re really cool Prism. I’ll probably talk about it at some point. I’ve had them for years and I love them and they’re just pretty hefty.

You know, like the fun kind of makes you feel like a professional hefty. I love these lightweight scallop ones because, number one, they’re much easier to bring around with me while I’m teaching, but they’re still substantial. And I do love the pretty scalloped edge. I don’t use pinking shears a lot, but I’m actually excited to try these out to, you know, quote unquote, finish a knit hem because I don’t, I don’t always do that. You?

Ada
I never thought about using them on a knit hem, but they are great weight, even the lightweight ones for beginners to get used to. And I just like having them to demo. But yes, I keep a pair of pinking shears in my personal stash just on the off chance that I’m feeling like the surgery is too much today or she is giving me problems. So definitely check them out. We will link to the pinking shears in the show notes for this episode.

Ada
Thanks again to LDH for sponsoring this episode.

Ada

I wonder if there’s a balance between kind of appreciating those videos where we show off the technique. Like you have a clip in your longer video on YouTube, Khensani where you’re like actually showing the beading going on and then you very quickly gave up on doing all of it. And you make a point because you’re showing us, right, like this is how long it took to do like this small piece and like these pieces get like in total and I don’t have time for that for my entire garment right now because I need to wear it tomorrow.

And then on the flip side, kind of like you said, I made this $1,000 dress in five minutes for $5 or whatever. And the more that I teach beginners who have no crafting experience and no making experience but see these types of videos, the more I see the vast disconnect, I think, between people understanding that people make our clothes predominantly from the global South and the people making our so our clothes are highly skilled. And it is highly skilled labor that we don’t have here in America.

Lisa Woolfork

Very true.

Ada

But that’s a different tangent. Yeah. And we are so far removed from it that people will come to class. I know some of my students have been listening to episodes and coming in, so thank you. But some people come to class with no context and they’re like, I signed up for your class because it was cheaper than buying this outfit that I want to make.

Khensani

Oh honey.

Ada

And I have to rein it in. And say like, hey, first of all, this class is expensive because what do we do? We pay our teachers a living wage. Second of all, you have to pay for materials for that dress. And I hate to tell you how much satin costs, even if it’s 100% polyester, or maybe you thrifted it. Maybe you made it out of a curtain. It’s still going to be expensive because you’re still not going to get it right on the first try, right? linen like they’re like oh my god linen costs as much and then not even to mention the fact that most people come and they don’t have a machine yet so once you add it all up i’m like did that is that a thousand dollar dress now or like where are we at on the tab. But I deeply appreciate the thoughtfulness

Khensani

Yeah, I think also for me, I feel like, i like when I talk to like some of the older women I know, i think part of that disconnect is also like everyone’s so removed from making clothing.Like, I mean, I didn’t learn how to sew when I was younger, but like I’d seen my aunt doing it. I’ve seen like family members doing it. And also have lots of friends who like, I mean, I’m always super jealous of them because they got to grow up with like a seamstress for a mom.

But I think also a lot more of us today just don’t have an understanding of like, anything about how clothing goes together anymore which i feel like you had more of a bit back in the day not just because people like learned that at school but i think it was just like in order to shop you had to know what you would like talking about like you went to a store and you understood like what kind of collar was on a garment or you understood you know this is that kind of sleeve well people just had a better knowledge of like fabrics right because that’s what helped you make your shopping decisions and then now we also have this very like online system and we’re so far away not just from the people making the clothes but the clothes are themselves and you’re just looking at something on a screen you’re never really required to understand how anything works because it’s also like it’s 20 bucks if it comes in it sucks then like well free returns you know something like.

Ada

Free returns aren’t free. Screaming. Yeah, I wonder sometimes because people come in and they’re like, is this hard? And they’ll show you a picture and it’s like Met Gala outfit. Not even to say like, you know, black dandyism and the tailoring. I was like, that’s that’s fucking hard. That’s fucking hard.

Lisa Woolfork

It’s very hard.

Ada

But they’ll show you like, oh, I want like a dress shirt, but I want to make it oversized and I want it to have pleats in the back and look at this thing that has patchwork. Or they’ll say like, why is the lady at the farmer’s market selling denim jackets and bordered on the back for $200? I’m like, well, it costs that much to make it.

Lisa Woolfork

And $200 is a bargain. Why are you thinking because she’s at a farmer’s market? She’s not supposed to, oh, stop it. Yes.

Ada

You would be surprised what people have said to my face.

Khensani

Terrible.

Lisa Woolfork

Wow. I would be surprised. I would be i will be surprised and I would be, and maybe not surprised, i think I would definitely be outraged because I think the consumer culture thinks that all what we’re creating is and this is all about a product and not recognizing that there’s a lot of art, a lot of craft, a lot of expertise that goes into having the things we wear. And I think it’s unfortunate that fast fashion, even if you don’t participate in it and you don’t buy fast fashion, it has helped to contribute to the decline in value of clothing overall for everyone.

So that even though the fast fashion industry might not be something that I personally participate in. It has still shaped how I’m able to acquire certain things or how people imagine things are supposed to be. Like there’s this somehow people have internalized this weird philosophy that if a dress costs a certain amount of money and it never, it doesn’t fit in order to get it altered to fit you, it should be less than what you paid for the dress. Why is that your math? That doesn’t make it. Well, this dress was $300. The alteration should not be $300. Like, well, maybe you should have bought a dress that actually fit you and you would not have to pay for all these alterations.

Khensani

But also maintenance is like a part of life. Like if you, if you bought a car and you had to replace the tires, you wouldn’t be like, well, the car should have been cheaper. Yeah.

Lisa Woolfork

That is such a good point.

Nicole

Yeah, that’s a great point. And I actually think the YouTube video that you put out for the apron top does strike a really good balance. Yes, we love a good panic sew on the Asian sewist collective. By we, I mean Ada does.

Ada

Look, I am one month out from Beyonce in London and I started the toile like two nights ago.

Lisa Woolfork

Good for you.

Khensani

Yeah, you have a month at least.

Ada

I have a month. The question is, do I want to add other things to it within this month because the 12 magically fit pretty well? That’s the question for future Ada to maybe panic.

Nicole

Nut not like the 12 hours before your flight, right? Or maybe.

Ada

No promises right now, okay? No promises.

Nicole

And in your video, Khensani, we already touched on this, but I think it does strike that good balance because yes, you were sewing for an event. I think sewists have all been there at some point, you know, for whether it’s 12 hours, 24 hours a week. For some people, a week is panic sewing. But you show, like Ada said, the beading and another thing that, I was that I know I don’t have the patience for is how you flatlined and basted everything together by hand so carefully. 

Lisa Woolfork

Wow. yeah

Nicole

And then added the, i believe it was added the binding and then removed all the baste. Like I do not simply do not have the patience for that. So I, while you were working really hard and you’d said something, I think I pulled it out of the video. It’s like, why would I hurt myself like this? So something like that, you know, something like that, like I, rather than hurting myself, I could just spend more time, but um just watch the video. It’s really cool.

But yeah, you showed really what it takes, even if, you know, people will be like, okay, well you repurposed something So that didn’t really cost you anything or, oh, you were, look, you could do this in 12 hours, but no, this requires a lot of skill, a little bit of sacrificing the health on that part and slowing down in that process. Like the, the basting, was just like, yes, I know. i know that that’s what you need to get a clean finish to base the calico to the lace. And I would be like, I’ll just, I’ll just look at something else. So I think, you I think you really showed it.

Despite all this conversation about like, you know, sewing for social media, I think your video was so charming in that I was just watching it and I’m like, yeah, I get it. I get it. It’s difficult. And then like you, you flashed your dog and then your cats. And I was like, this is just wonderful social media.

Khensani

My super helpful assistants.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes. I love how you told the cat. You were like, don’t move. Stay right there.

Khensani

Yeah, know. She’s like my best pattern weight.

We love that. Listeners, definitely watch it. There were a couple of other shorts that you’d put on as well. One that stuck out to me was you had said you were looking at, 

I can’t remember exactly what era of clothing, but you said you were looking at it and you’d realized it’s all just rectangles.

Khensani

Oh yeah, yeah, that was basically like, sort of I’ve been I mean, I’m still on a hunt for like medieval Africa, and something,

Nicole

That’s what it was. Yeah.

Khensani

I was just, yeah, I was just kind of noticing that like everywhere you go on the continent is just some sort of rectangle. like, if you think of like the caftan or boo-boos or like here South Africa, like in my culture, we wear these very full gathered skirts, just big, it’s like just 50 meters of fabric bunched up around the waist.

Then you have things like, yeah, I don’ can’t even know what else, but it’s, it’s very interesting. There’s so many ways that, um, some of the things that look the most complicated or intricate, like, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen like, Nigerian like agbada, like the menswear, all this like shape in the shoulders and stuff. It is two flat rectangles, barely.

Ada

No way.

Khensani

So I’m so serious. And they only saw it at the bottom at the hem. It’s actually like just cut in half. You put a hole in the middle for your head. You sew it at the bottom and then they just like either starch it or like they’ll add padding and stuff, but that’s it. That’s, that’s the whole design. I mean, also makes sense if you think about something like a sari as well, like at the end, it’s super complicated thing, but it is just also another rectangle.

If you look at like different head wraps and stuff. Um, and it was just interesting to see that it’s like, a lot of things are very simple actually. We do very amazing intricate things with them.

Yeah, everything just comes down to like a basic rectangle, like the God of all shapes. say

Ada

I was like, a sari is a rectangle, kimonos are rectangles sewn together. Like everything is just a rectangle. Honestly, why did we start making, why did we start sewing curves?

Khensani

Honestly, when we invented darts, worst. 

Lisa Woolfork

Hmm. And I wonder, it’s because i think you have to have, like, you have to have the skill to know how to manipulate that fabric so that it does not look like a bunch of rectangles. Like, that is the difference. Like, and adding the padding under the shoulders so that it it really kind of stands out.

Or being able to, you know, tie a gele or something which with these beautiful, And all of those start as rectangles, but they end up being these, you know, flowers or stars or, you know, these really elaborate crowns. It’s pretty amazing to kind of have that as that’s skill, in addition to being able to sew, but being able to fold, to pleat, to pin. That’s also something that’s really remarkable, I think. That’s amazing. I hadn’t thought about it as rectangles. that’s Or in the flatness. that transformative property of the flatness into something that is kind of three-dimensional and could stand on its own too.

Khensani

Yeah. And I mean, also makes sense because I think if you also look at a lot of these like different cultures, there’s a lot of work on like the textile itself. So like, I’ve also been having that recently, like, someone actually lovingly gifted me like this really beautiful, Dupioni silk from India.

Lisa Woolfork

Wow.

Khensani

And i’ve I’ve had it in the cupboard for two years because I’m just like I can’t touch this it’s like it’s too British it’s like fully embroidered it’s like four meters of fabric it’s gorgeous and I’m just like I can’t like it would be a sense to cut into this like that also kind of makes sense when you like why you’d kind of want to keep something in a rectangle but then it’s also cool because then you also have like if you wanted to pass this down later on then you’re just basically giving someone like a big piece of material so you get to keep something around it’s also like size adjustable, it’s basically kind of zero waste. And I thought those were also other interesting ways to think about approaching a lot of these like, sort of sustainable design talking points that we have. Because I think there’s always this focus on like, oh my god, we have to invent a new kind of leather or we’ve got ah we’ve got to get the machines to cut faster. But there’s also so much that we’ve been doing for centuries by doing very little or like seemingly very little that work is great practices. 

Nicole

I love that. and i And from a Philippine-American perspective, I think it’s a little bit, it’s tough. There’s a long history of, of course, pre-colonial Philippines, but the issue is historical documentation from a native perspective. A lot of the sources are Spanish. I think there’s maybe a little bit of Chinese because there’s migration before colonization. But yeah, wraps, rectangle wraps, because it’s hot in the Philippines. And that’s that’s what it was. But then the Spanish came and saw the women with their bare tops. And it’s just sinful. And they started to cover up. so there’s this whole legacy of that, which I think is interesting. It’s more like the rectangles are an ancestral shape like when it comes to fashion, which is pretty cool.

Khensani

Yeah, I like that. Nice.

Lisa Woolfork

That’s beautiful. I like that. That’s awesome.

Nicole

I’ll trademark it. I didn’t. That just came. That just came from me.

Khensani

Nice.

Nicole

But no, it’s true. I loved that short. Yes, it was. It was like wondering how Africans dressed in medieval times. And if I had to think about Filipinos who were not Filipinos at the time, because as we all we talked about off air, the Philippines is named after a king of Spain. King philip yeah they were probably also wearing rectangles too so what other experiments and i don’t know if we’ve said this yet on the podcast Blasian wardrobe Black and Asian what other experiments or research sort of avenues are you planning for your future?

Khensani

You want to hear all of them? I have quite a few. Another one, actually I have a really great friend. She runs a really beautiful and sort of like NGO where they like to help upskill, for lack of a better term, disadvantaged women with sewing skills and et cetera.  And their primary mode of business is they upcycle saris, and they transform that into garments. And what’s really interesting, so she’s half Indian, and then she’s also, believe she grew up in Kenya and in South Africa as well. So I’ve been talking with her, because I mean, I have been sort of kind of aware of the… sort of like Indian-African connections, but very, very quick background on South Africa is just like, there is quite a lot of like sort of stratification inside here. So like, I think we have like maybe the second biggest Indian population outside of India.

But like my own like knowledge of like Indian culture has been, it’s been quite artificial. And then recently as I’ve been like learning more about fashion history and stuff, I’ve been talking to my friends about their own practices and then starting to realize all these amazing similarities something i want to work on with her is just looking at because there’s a lot of So there are few traditional or so-called traditional South African fabrics that also have these very Indian roots.

And we’re kind of looking at exploring like what it is about sort of the shared motifs and designs. So things like the cypress that’s like paisley now. um And then other the sort of ways of arranging flowers and stuff. And then also approaches to embroidery that are quite similar between the two different cultures. So like my background is like half Tsonga. And women used to do a lot of really beautiful wall paintings and like mural stuff that they later transferred onto fabric, like with having to migrate and move to urban areas.

Khensani

And also part of that was quite influenced by a lot of the Indian textiles that they were interacting with in terms of like the techniques they would use and stuff. I mean, hopefully I’ll have another hundred hours soon. That might be like a really big embroidery project. Something else I’m really into looking at is like dyeing and printmaking. So like, I’m, Yeah, also when I’d mentioned like the stuff with cassava paste and wheat paste, there’s a form of indigo dyeing in Nigeria where they use cassava paste as like a resist.

So you’d paint out all your like shapes on the fabric with the cassava and then you once you dunk it in the dye, and every part that’s not covered by the cassava is dyed. then sort of like Indonesia, they do this with wax. Hopefully I get to explore something along those lines. things like there’s so many things like part of me wants to like just take a like a world the map and i’m just gonna have like close my eyes and put a pin on ah just a random Asian country and then a random African one and then just see like what happens. Like we’ll just put Congo and like Malaysia together and like ah find something there don’t know yeah.

Nicole

You should do it. I would watch that.

Lisa Woolfork

I agree.

Khensani

I think so i just need more time

Nicole

Time is a resource, yeah.

Khensani

Yeah because there’s at least 54 like African countries then like And i don’t even want to get into like ethnicities and tribes. And then talking about like Asia, like, ooh, but like lots of, I think so many interesting fun parallel parallels that are just waiting to be explored.

Ada

I love it. Lisa, do you have any more questions? Otherwise, should we do the transition?

Lisa Woolfork

I don’t think I have any more questions. I was very curious about what she was up to next. And you know I did have a little question, and I think this was something you might have addressed in the video, but why the apron? And do you believe that the apron was one of the first garments that people ever wore? Do you think can we think we can make the claim that the apron was, if we go back to early humans, that I think that…

Khensani

Yeah, I mean, I will say, like, I think it’s, like, one of the first, like, items that’s even mentioned by name in, like, the Bible to give a sort of idea of, like, its history. and Not to say that the Bible is, like, the first thing ever, but, also, I think if you think about, like a lot of ancient texts, and like, things that we would refer to as, like, a loincloth is basically an apron. The moment we were able to make some sort of, like, fabric, so whether it was, like, leather or, like, woven cloth or something, and the first thing we had done before being able to, like, sew and things was… hanging them off the body.

And I’m still currently doing like a lot of research into this, but like aprons also very, very big part of a lot of indigenous South African clothing, particularly for women and like, much necessarily like in the very domestic role, but it’s like, a just a garment that’s managed to persevere.

So ah yeah, across all the cultures here, everyone has some version of like an apron like garment, and some of them get really elaborate and some of them are like, depending on like the animal hides that are available of them get like really intricately beaded and then you have like special ones for like initiation rites and weddings and so many amazing things happen and also like the symbols and the motifs change depending on like your position in the society and where you are as you get older and it’s something that we’ve managed to hold on to all these years and one of the few things i i mean not that anything is like pure from any sort of outside intervention, but one of the few things I think that’s been able to really remain intact. Because I guess it also did the part of also covering up the naughty bits and So I think that’s also what like made the missionaries pretty okay with like letting everyone keep it.

Khensani
And then also, yeah, and when I was like posting about that, lots of people also were sharing similar things as well across like so many other cultures in the world where it’s just kind of like, there is some sort of version of this. And then over time, we just start getting more elaborate with them.

But I’ve been very interested in the fact that like, yeah, at least in South Africa, for some reason, we’ve really held on to those. And then there’s also more interesting layers to like explore later on. Because also we have like, like for a long time, most black women in South Africa, like your role would just be like, like a wife in the like homestead or you would be a domestic worker.

And I mean, that’s sort of intrinsically comes with like an apron as well. it’s very interesting how this is like, on one hand, it’s like an item that is like so part of your cultural heritage, but then also another thing that kind of signifies your like status and oppression and interesting ways is kind of play off each other or sort of interact.

Lisa Woolfork

That was something I was thinking a lot about because I’ve been doing a lot of research about the needle. And I have been so excited to tell anybody who would listen is that the needle is older than the wheel and that the first needle is about 60,000 years old and it was found in a cave in South Africa.

And so from there, after so 60,000 years, that first needle was more like an awl. And it was used, so the first needle made seams possible. Before the first needle, there were no seams. And then about 30,000 years later, i think in some part of Europe, the eye of the needle was introduced. And that made embellishment possible. Okay. And then i think independently in China, there was also a needle found that was like 40,000 years old.

All of this is older than the wheel. All of these are older than the wheel. And so what I love about it is I am kind of claiming this kind of pre-colonial, pre-historical approach to what sewing can be. And for me, I see it as liberatory. I see it as centering human-centered design. What do humans need? And the needle made certain things possible for humans to put on an apron or put on a loincloth or put before you go to colonize anybody, you have to gird your loins, I guess. And so it just it just reminds me that this is that but this is very, very old. And I just think that’s really fascinating. And so I was really happy to see the apron as a kind of very long cultural legacy that could date back you know thousands of upon thousands of years to some of our prehistoric times as well. So I thought it was pretty cool.

Khensani

That’s amazing. I also think I want to start saying like “reinventing the needle” now instead of like reinventing the wheel.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes, don’t reinvent the needle.

Nicole

Yes.

Khensani

Don’t reinvent the needle. I like that.

Lisa Woolfork

I love it.

Ada

The next time someone complains to me about not being able to thread it through on their machine for the first time, I’m just going to be like, well, you know how old a needle with an eye is? Forget the whole like putting it on a machine, a needle with an eye. We’ve been doing it for 30,000 years. You too can do it on this machine.

Lisa Woolfork

You can do it.

Khensani

That’s amazing but yeah i love that you share that because it’s like this is such a this is like our first technology it’s like the first thing we’ve like you know we’ve done and it’s part of the reason we get to enjoy and also suffer from all of the progress we have today it’s like you know like we if we didn’t start selling things we couldn’t go out into the world we couldn’t start putting things together and i think that’s such a beautiful thing, I think, to always connect about with clothing. And that’s also, like, even if you’re not someone who sews or anything, it’s a lovely heritage you get to embody every single day. Like, you live in it, literally. 

Lisa Woolfork

Exactly. Yes. Well said.

Ada

Well said. And on that note, and we’re going to go to the outro. Lisa and then Khensani, can you both tell our listeners where they can find you?

Lisa Woolfork

Well, you can find me. has been Lisa Woolfork from Black Women Stitch and the Stitch Please podcast. And you can listen to the Stitch Please podcast wherever you get your podcasts, especially on Apple Podcasts. And you can find us also on Instagram and the other socials @BlackWomenStitch.

Khensani

yeah And then I am at @OKBaddieK on Instagram and TikTok. Then my full government name on YouTube, which is @KhensaniMohlatlole or I think it’s @Khensani now.

Ada

We’ll link to it.

Khensani

But yeah there’s there yeah, those are my main ones. um um And then yeah I’m pretty much going to be creeping up somewhere on the internet, but yeah, pretty much there.

Ada

Amazing. Thank you both so much. This has been so fun. Can’t wait to see where your adventures in a Blasian Wardrobe take you. If you do end up doing that map, let us know. We want to see it.

Lisa Woolfork

Yes, we do.

Khensani

If you guys have some suggestions, like some fun cross-cultural collabs to explore, I’m open.

Ada

We’ll take that to the team. Challenge accepted. Thank you both for being on with us today. We really appreciate it.

Lisa Woolfork

Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you all so much.

Khensani

Thank you. This has been absolutely amazing. Also, double thank you, Lisa, for like getting us all together. This has been so, so good.

Ada:
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Asian Sewist Collective podcast. If you like our show, please consider supporting us on Ko-fi by becoming a one-time or monthly supporter or by buying our sewing labels. Your financial support helps us with our overhead expenses. The link to our Ko-fi page is KO-FI.com/AsianSewistCollective, and you can find the link in our show notes, on our website, and on our Instagram account. Check us out on Instagram at AsianSewistCollective. You can also help us out by spreading the word and telling your friends. We would also appreciate it if you could rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Nicole:
All of the links and resources mentioned in today’s episode will be in the show notes on our website, AsianSewistCollective.com, and we’d love to hear from you. Email us with your questions, comments, or even voice messages if you want to be featured on future episodes at AsianSewistCollective@gmail.com. Thank you so much to the other members of our collective who made this episode a reality. This is the Asian Sewist Collective podcast, and we’ll see you next time.