Listen to the episode
Decluttering with Grace – Part 1 – The Asian Sewist Collective Podcast
Links Mentioned
Decolonizing Therapy – Dr. Jennifer Mullan
Internal Family Systems (IFS) Institute
No Bad Parts – Richard Schwartz
Just Organized By Taya – YouTube
Transcript
Nicole
Oh, shorts sticking to my chair. It’s nasty. Sorry, you didn’t need to know that, but ugh okay.
Ada
Welcome to the Asian Sewist Collective Podcast. The Asian Sewist Collective is a group of Asian people from around the world brought together by our shared appreciation for fiber and textile arts and our desire to see more Asian representation in the sewing community.
Nicole
In this podcast we explore the intersection of identities and our shared sewing practice as we create a space for Asian Sewists and our allies.
Ada
I’m your co-host, Ada Chen, and I’m recording from Denver, Colorado. Denver is the traditional territory of the Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho peoples. I’m a Taiwanese American marketer, turned entrepreneur, and these days you’ll find me running my natural skincare brand, Erleia. That’s E-R-L-E-I-A. Find us on social media at Erleia Skin. Most importantly for this podcast you can find my sewing at i.hope.sew on Instagram.
Nicole
And I’m your co-host, Nicole. I’m recording outside of Chicago, Illinois, the original homelands of the Council of the Three Fires, the Ojibwe, the Potawatomi, and the Odawa people. I’m a Philippine American lawyer who loves to sew and you can find me on Instagram at Nicoleangelinesews.
This episode is a part one of a two part episode talking about decluttering with Grace.
Nicole
Hey listeners, so today’s episode came from an experience that I’ve been having recently about decluttering and organizing my sewing space and decluttering and organizing are separate steps I have learned that you have to do one before you can really get to the other. And this is something I’ve always struggled with, not just my sewing space. You know, I’m hoping to do a whole home declutter and reorganize is part of this process. But the idea for this episode came from one Sunday when I was trying to hear from other people about their decluttering journey via YouTube. I wanted to get inspired, motivated, for someone to tell me that this is normally, it’s normal if it’s difficult. And I quickly realized that the YouTube’s algorithm serves almost exclusively white women giving advice. And i really then started to look and I found maybe on the second page of results, like one Black woman who was talking about organizing and she has an organizing business.
The account is Just Organized by Taya, T-A-Y-A. I’ll put it in the show notes. So I settled in to watch, you know, to do a little sewing and watch before I actually get into the decluttering. And I realized that these women were talking to me about concepts of guilt and letting go of items. And I found myself asking, wait, who are they? As in, what are their qualifications or sources for telling me that there are three, five, seven types of guilt related to keeping things? And you know when we’re we’re sharing information with you we always try to you, we always try to make sure we have sources to back up what we’re saying. So I thought, why don’t I reach out to Grace, who is a counselor here in the Chicago area, our guest today, and we can talk about the psychology of decluttering and organizing and discuss some of the nuanced feelings I was feeling relating to how I grew up and the retention of objects, something I think might be relatable to a lot of people coming from immigrant or lower income families. And I’m, of course, not making any assumptions, dear your listener, about your experiences. But maybe you’re looking for someone who you can relate to and hopefully we can be your people. So with that, Grace, it’s great to have you on.
Grace Oczon
Thanks, Nicole. Yeah, my name is Grace. I am not a sewist. I do knit though, and we can talk a little bit more about some of the fiber arts that I do like to enjoy, but I am primarily here as a counselor or therapist. My credential is LCPC and that varies across states. So in Illinois, that’s the second or highest tier of the counseling field. You know, other other states that might be LMHC or whatever. I got that degree in or that licensure in 2023. I graduated with my LPC and the master’s in 2020. So I’ve been here for a little bit.
And in terms of my background and identity, I was born and raised in Chicago. My mother’s from the Philippines, specifically Mindanao. Shout out to Davao. My father is from Delhi, India. I’m not entirely familiar with his side of the family, so I’m not super connected to my South Asian heritage, but definitely grew up in Filipino community, and I find other ways to nurture kind of the intersection between those things.
And I do find that that does show up a lot in the work that I do. And so do you think it would be really helpful to give a lot more context to the work that I do in terms of the types of practice and then the modality that I use.
I do think that will have a lot to talk about in terms of the narratives you’ve heard about guilt. And so I work in a group practice setting. Technically, it’s a private practice. I do you think of a pretty cool model too, where we’ve got, you know, half of it’s functioning like a private practice where I see individual outpatient folks using insurance, like classic therapy set up. And then we’ve got another half that’s a nonprofit side. We partner with other service provider, nonprofit orgs, and they can refer clients to us. And that can be full, like fully funded or cost or sliding scale, depending on what the relationship is with that org. And so I do, thankfully, you know, that can really vary in terms of the types of experiences and data you can collect as a service provider, as it as a therapist, with the experiences of the folks that you’re working with. But because I do, we do have those connections, I feel Thankfully, and it’s not like I’ve had to choose between you know the work that makes my heart feel full and giving back to the communities that I care about or selling out to private practice.
like I feel like I found a place and it doesn’t feel common as an opportunity to do that. So I feel so grateful to have found like to carve out the specific place for myself.
So shout out to AMK Counseling in Ravenswood and Lincoln Park. And then in terms of the actual perspective that I operate from, something called internal family systems. Have you ever heard of that before?
Nicole
I have not, let us know.
Grace Oczon
Yeah so it really, to me, I practice it kind of in opposition or in resistance to pretty traditional forms of, or classic, I guess, forms of like modern mental health approaches. And so the like the classic that you’d see on the internet, if you’re looking for like quote unquote evidence-based approaches or what insurance will have no problem covering are things like CBT, like cognitive behavioral therapy or DBT, ACT. All of which can be totally useful for very specific presentations. We’re talking about thoughts, behaviors, and feelings. But the major assumption that runs through these types of therapies is that there’s something called the mono mind. Right? There’s one rational mind. And if I’m behaving or thinking or feeling in ways that divert from that one mind, then I’m acting or thinking or behaving irrationally, right? And because that’s the case, then I need, that needs to be kind of rooted out or reframed or rehabilitated to be in alignment with that monomind that I ascribe to as an adult at whatever point in time I’m making this evaluation.
And internal family systems, it kind of exists to do the opposite, right? So assumes that we are complex and made of multiple parts and that at any point in time, the thoughts or feelings or behaviors that we’re exhibiting, they might not always align. They might sometimes be in conflict that can often cause conflict internally. And that that in and of itself doesn’t have to mean, it doesn’t have to be something that we’re pathologizing or saying like, you know, well, that means something’s wrong with you and you need to go to therapy to change that so that you can be more rational or you know better yet, so you can function better in the workplace or be higher performing. And instead, internal family systems assumes that all of these parts of us that are saying things at any different point in time might or definitely have value and are working to get needs met. And there are oftentimes that various parts of us are trying to get various needs met, and sometimes ah can those can happen in conflicting ways, and we can talk how that happens specifically, um especially when it comes to decluttering.
But I do think that’s significant for especially immigrant folks who are having at any point in time to contend with the narratives that we grew up with, that we were raised with, the values that we were raised with, and having to hold at any point in time what it looks like to adapt to life here and finding a sense of belonging, building relationships here, and and building community and and finding ourselves in those intersections.
Nicole
That’s really interesting. I think, thank you for sharing that context. You know, the internal family systems perspective to me sounds like a more holistic look at a person than the mono mind that you said. While you were describing like the monomind and like, am I being rational? How do I, how do I go back to this rational perspective? And while I, while you were talking, I was totally listening, but I was thinking, and you know, what is, what is rational in that model? Like, is there a, it sounds like that there may be a system, a systemics, a agreed upon definition within that framework of rationality that might that doesn’t account… you’re laughing because it’s probably true right… like is it is there like a single perspective that everyone is supposed to mold themselves into and is it not inclusive is it i mean is it? is it? okay i’ll just say: it is it you know like a model that centers the white experience?
Grace Oczon
100% in my opinion this is my opinion right and from my experience it’s it’s like the quiet part that no one says out loud is that we’ve we’re all kind of silently agreeing to what rational means, what, kind of in general what all these things mean right what functioning is even and what high performing means and what it means to be fulfilled to find meaning to be happy like all of these i could go on and on about how culturally how much how much white supremacy culture underlies or shapes what those things mean especially in the mental health field it’s so behind.
I think and i can plug this too later we can talk more about it but there’s a a great therapist that’s doing a lot of work to help drive us forward Dr. Jennifer Mullen just recently released a book last year called Decolonizing Therapy and she’s had an account for a long time and and has kind of produced sound bites and been featured on other you know and other types of media to disrupt what these dialogues sound like in terms of the things that we pathologize, the things that people with degrees will say, like, this is healthy or not healthy, or this needs to change, all exists in a context, yeah, of reproducing capitalism, protecting white supremacy, and continuing to disenfranchise folks that don’t belong there or don’t fit there and those those are some pretty incendiary statements of it.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
We can can unpack some of that, too. I think it’s definitely related to the topic of today, so.
Nicole
Yeah, but that’s, we’ll, listeners, we will add a link to Jennifer, doctor Dr. Jennifer Mullen, or Dr.
Grace Oczon
Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah
Nicole
Dr. Jennifer Mullen’s book and accounts in our show notes, so be sure to check it out. So turning to the specific topic of decluttering and you’re here why you’re here to help me, Grace, which I feel like there’s a lot out there on why decluttering is better for our mental health. That’s the predominant sort of everyone’s talking about it. Google it. That’s not really why we’re here today. What I want to talk about is why is it hard? and So I’ll start with a super easy question. Total softball. What drives us to keep stuff? And I’m being sarcastic. That cannot be an easy answer.
Grace Oczon
I’m so glad you said that because that’s the thing that I prepared the most for for today. So I can answer that question. Yeah. The short answer to that would be for me, scarcity and survival.
And any good therapist would not give you a short answer anyway. So the heads up would be that the long answer starts with it depends.
Nicole
Are you a lawyer at heart?
Grace Oczon
Yeah.
Nicole
That’s an that’s a lawyer answer right there.
Grace Oczon
You know, I don’t know if you feel comfortable talking about this part, by the way, but ah I think you have a counseling background as well education.
Nicole
I have a degree, a master’s degree in psychology ah with a focus on clinical mental health counseling. I haven’t professionally pursued it in any way. It was a part of my JD studies when I was getting my law degree as well, but I’m familiar with concepts and whatnot.
Grace Oczon
Well, I think of you often when there’s so many moments of overlap, and this is totally one where that kind of language of it, it totally depends.
Nicole
Mm-hmm.
Grace Oczon
There are so many things that could influence what drives us to keep stuff. And this does feel a little legally when I talk like this, but who are we talking about? Who’s the one that’s trying to make these decisions? What kind of stuff are we talking about?
And then you know, what kind of what kind of systems is that person interacting with? And what does this stuff mean to that person’s like survival of those systems or how they’re navigating those systems?
On the lower impact end of this question, right, we might be asking things like, what if I’ll need this someday? What if this might cost more in the future? And that might mean something different to someone who will have easy access to that kind of material in the future or that item and someone else who might have really struggled to get it in the first place and then is struggling with, well, it’s here now and I might not be making use of it. And there are so many questions that can go into that decision-making process.
And so just kind of made a list of some themes that come up for me when I was thinking about the different types of folks that might be asking themselves these questions. So some themes like nostalgia or guilt definitely came up and I do want to hear more about kind of what you read in that context.
Things like fear of uncertainty, rigidity, consumer culture, the aesthetic of maximalism, and then, you know, keeping stuff as representation of aspirational identity. So the kind of meaning that we assign to the things that we, that we procure, that we own that we interact with and and what does that mean about who we are as people all of that can depend on all that all of that can be uncertain and change based on who we are in the space that we occupy in society I’m having a thought of um you know it doesn’t have to be this deep.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
Okay, I do have a story to kind of ground us in one example. And I would love to hear if you have any more to offer to shape this perspective. But so for me, I again, knit, I have a history of crocheting. For me, it was really helpful for navigating college. I moved away for college and so it was, it kept me company. I had bouts of vertigo and there were times where I couldn’t leave my room and I could figure out crochet or knit to keep me company and to feel like I could be capable of doing things even if I couldn’t really move very well or move very much.
Nicole
Oh no.
Grace Oczon
And so it meant a lot to me to have that as a hobby. And so my mom knew how much it meant to me. And so a few years ago, for context, she works at a long-term care facility And she is like the queen of decluttering. I actually don’t know many immigrant women that are as good at decluttering as she is.
Nicole
Wow.
Grace Oczon
She will, I admire her so much for it. And there are other themes that are in that that we can talk about later too. um But when she was kind of clearing out the, she was clearing out the activity area storage space when she had some downtime one day, which why? It wasn’t even her space to clean, but she had found this big, clear tub of, of yarn and needles and, you know those like wooden round things for cross stitching, embroidery.
Nicole
Embroidery hoop? Or…
Grace Oczon
Yes, thank you.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
A bunch of them, but mostly yarn and needles and double pointed needles too, which were really helpful. And so, and the yarn was mostly acrylic and polyester. So by the time she had have found this bin, I’d kind of moved beyond those fibers and they like just didn’t hold up very well. And I didn’t like really using them anymore once I learned how to use more natural fibers.
Nicole
Mm-hmm.
Grace Oczon
And she had found this spot this bin had kind of had this really lovely conversation with the activities director about how much I value you know this stuff and she hadn’t seen them ever use it in the time that she was there and so she asked him if he could give it to me and and his name was Anthony for the purposes of the story Anthony was so touched that he could give me this bin and that he’ll be part of our lives in this way and It really didn’t have to be that deep, but she was so excited to have this connection. And she was like, maybe you can make some things for the residents. And I’m like, that sounds like a really nice idea. And this bin ended up in my closet for about a year and a half. And I remember every time I looked at it, I would think, I don’t like the yarn.
I’m very thankful for the opportunities. I have what I need, but I can’t. I can’t take this out of my closet. I can’t put it anywhere else. Because to me, what it what it represented was the kind of person that she sees me as of like, that I will one be grateful. I’m grateful. I’m thankful for this resource or for this gift. And that someone thought of me in this way. I’m grateful that she remembered that it meant so much to me and enough that she would want to give this to me.
Nicole
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Grace Oczon
And then I also had this like other layer of guilt of like, I didn’t want to make her look bad if I didn’t make make something useful with this or like do something good with this kind gesture. Just a bin in a closet that no one was looking at or using. But because I think of the way that conversation went and the layers of our relationship, for me, it just represented so much more. And of course there’s that cultural piece of, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to make her look bad. That feels like it’s my responsibility to like, you know, uphold however she’s spoken about me or our relationship.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
And I remember it took a long time to be able to, what I, what I knew what I needed, that part of me that was reacting in that moment was the part of me that wanted to keep hold onto this bin was like, please don’t, please don’t pass up this opportunity. Otherwise, then it means we’re X, Y, and Z. Always the terrible things that come to mind, right? And again, CBT might think that’s an irrational thought, just let it go and let the fucking bin go.
So in response to that reaction, right, there was a reaction of just let the fucking bin go. There’s that anger, right? But now it’s a dialogue. It’s either the guilt of I need to let this go or if I need to make something useful with this. And there’s another part that wants to let the part that wants to let it go also doesn’t sound quote unquote rational, like according to CBT, because that part is also mad that we’re here, mad that I’m stuck on this topic, mad that there’s a spin taking up space in my closet that’s not doing anything.
And that conversation is more nuanced and more interesting than saying, well, it’s not useful. Let’s just make a rational decision and move on, right? Because then there’s still all this mess of this conversation that’s kind of getting no resolve here. Now it’s just guilt and anger and then I have to find some place to put it and then carry on and go about my day and then maybe think about it again and and all this stuff might come up, right? Whereas IFS, internal family systems, might say, okay, well now there might be these two parts that are speaking to each other. If we placed the same amount of value on both of their voices, what could we learn from that conversation?
Nicole
Hmm.
Grace Oczon
The guilt wants me to align with my values, right? Wants to be, you know, I guess like a good, thoughtful person, wants to be resourceful, wants to be even grateful, right?
Like wants to practice that gratitude. And then there’s the angry part that doesn’t want all of my space taken up by these things that I’m not using. That also does make sense. They both, if we listen to both of those parts, they can both have value.
But also, if you listen closer to that conversation, they’re not really talking to each other. It’s kind of like like a scared, ah guilty, ashamed immigrant kid. And then like the angry, overworked parent who’s like, can you just do what I’m asking you to do? and And the I guess my assertion there would be where where IFS would be useful here is like,
we can offer both of these parts compassion and understand that both of them have agendas that are worth meeting, can we meet them in different ways? so for example, with this part that was holding onto you know the idea or the aspiration of what this what using this yarn would mean for me, can I still live in those values or can I reassure that part that we can still be grateful and thoughtful and kind and a good kid and a good person
Nicole
Yeah. Yeah.
Grace Oczon
And can can this not be, does this have to be the vehicle for doing that? Can we find other opportunities or ways to to make that happen? you know what i mean?
Nicole
yeah
Grace Oczon
And then the angry part, you know, can we find a way to let this go without shaming or blaming this part that wanted to hold onto it? Can we offer both of these parts? And then can we invite these parts to offer each other compassion for we’re all just trying to do our best and make it right. It’s almost like facilitating and building community within the conflicts in ourselves.
So I know that can kind of feel like a, you know, it felt like a silly story at the time, but then when I sort of realized how much was happening, there’s a lot of meaning there. And I really reckon that I’m not alone in that.
Nicole
Yeah. Now, when you were describing your story about the box and your feelings about it and your thoughts about why you felt like you should keep it, it resonates with me 100% across like my home, the different contexts. But with sewing, it’s the same thing. like It’s…
Oh, I someone thought of me and I received this fabric and I want to make something of it, but I’m not doing anything with it right now and it’s taking up space. So I’m like holding on to something that doesn’t seem like it’s going to suit me in the short term or even middle term, but then I’m pissed off about it or I’m upset or I’m overwhelmed about having this stuff. I just expanded it to like stuff because it’s it’s more, for me, it’s more than just a box. It’s like, it’s a lot more than a box. But, um you know, so for me, you know, that that really, it’s really insightful to hear you say that though these warring ideas are equally valid and it’s normal to have sort of these conflicting feelings.
Nicole
And, you know, when it comes to what’s out there on social media, because nobody’s really talking about this, it’s just like, just get it done. You got to get it done. That’s the right thing to do. And something that you said earlier was it’s not that deep. And I’m like, I know, I know it’s like it doesn’t seem like it is, but I’m obviously dealing with these feelings. So it’s deep enough for me to sit with it. And I’m not the type of person that just wants to, I mean, I do I did all the time in my life, but power through discomfort and power through just just get it done.
And for me, I mean, sort of cycles of years of different parts of my life, like my closet or my my sewing supplies or my DVD collection back in the day, it’s powering through, I can’t, I don’t, I shut down and then I just live in it. So I really appreciate the perspective and, and see, and really just from this conversation that we’re having now, it seems like a more modern approach that honors our multiple faceted identities within us, you know, not just the children of immigrants or immigrants and you know it’s really those warring parts of us could be coming from anywhere and appreciating that you don’t have to have the mono-mind I think is a way that I really find value of in thinking of these things and thinking of why my question why what drives us to keep stuff you know.
Grace Oczon
Yeah, yeah, totally. And even as you’re saying that, I’m also recognizing that the part of me that was speaking up to say it doesn’t have to be that deep or it’s not that deep is not one that I align with or resonate either. And so I’m trying to have some compassion for that perspective as well. But it does feel like a little bit of a bully inside. I’m sure she’s answering to some sort of external or social pressure to, yeah, just get it done or…
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
make this simple. And it’s just not because that erases exactly what we’re talking about, right? Our experiences and this dialogue that happened in so many other contexts because of all the perspectives that we’re answering to that might not be considered problematic and in the cultures in which you grew up or you know in other countries even.
Nicole
And that’s it for part one of our discussion about decluttering with Grace. Keep an eye out on your feeds and we’ll be releasing part 2 soon.
Ada
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Asian Sewist Collective podcast If you like our show, please consider supporting us on coffee by becoming a one-time or monthly supporter or by buying our sewing labels. Your financial support helps us with our overhead expenses. The link to our coffee page is KO-FI .com Asian Sewist Collective and you can find the link in our show notes on our website and on our Instagram account. Check us out on Instagram at Asian Sewist Collective. That’s one word Asian Sewist Collective. You can also help us out by spreading the word and telling your friends We would also appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast
Nicole
All of the links and resources mentioned in today’s episode will be in the show notes on our website That’s Asian Sewist Collective.com and we’d love to hear from you Email us with your questions comments or even voice messages if you want to be featured on future episodes at Asian Sewist Collective@ gmail.com. Thank you so much to the other members of our collective who made this episode a reality. This is the Asian Sewist Collective podcast and we’ll see you next time.