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Decluttering with Grace – Part 2 – The Asian Sewist Collective Podcast
Transcript
Nicole
Welcome back to part 2 of our decluttering conversation with Grace. Enjoy!
Ada
Welcome to the Asian Sewist Collective Podcast. The Asian Sewist Collective is a group of Asian people from around the world brought together by our shared appreciation for fiber and textile arts and our desire to see more Asian representation in the sewing community.
Nicole
In this podcast we explore the intersection of identities and our shared sewing practice as we create a space for Asian Sewists and our allies.
Ada
I’m your co-host, Ada Chen, and I’m recording from Denver, Colorado. Denver is the traditional territory of the Ute, Cheyenne, and Arapaho peoples. I’m a Taiwanese American marketer, turned entrepreneur, and these days you’ll find me running my natural skincare brand, Erleia. That’s E-R-L-E-I-A. Find us on social media at Erleia Skin. Most importantly for this podcast you can find my sewing at i.hope.sew on Instagram.
Nicole
And I’m your co-host, Nicole. I’m recording outside of Chicago, Illinois, the original homelands of the Council of the Three Fires, the Ojibwe, the Potawatomi, and the Odawa people. I’m a Philippine American lawyer who loves to sew and you can find me on Instagram at Nicoleangelinesews.
Nicole
So just backing up a little bit to the top of our conversation, you’d mentioned that one of the many reasons why we keep stuff is like a scarcity mindset. So for our listeners, can you define what that means and then how you see it fitting into the decluttering conversation?
Grace Oczon
Yes. Scarcity mindset or scarcity in general refers to a shortage, right? There’s not and enough. There’s only a certain amount of resources available and there’s not enough for everybody is the concept or the idea. And so the mindset is actually pretty embedded into American culture, right? It’s the culture of competition as well. If there’s not enough for everybody, then I need to make sure that I have enough for myself and for my family. And if I don’t, then I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t trust. I don’t believe that I will know how to make that happen or get it. I don’t know if this will lead to a need going unmet and that the risk that I would have to endure or take on in the meantime, isn’t worth it.
So I’m instead going to mitigate that risk by collecting or saving something that I’m not using right now, which would ultimately lead to clutter. I think a simple Google search I’ve learned shows that this is a pretty, I think, relatable experience for folks across the board when we’re talking about decluttering. And we can all kind of relate to scarcity mindset because whether or not we’re in survival mode or whether or not we’re we as an individual or our families are experiencing a need or a lack in real time, we do kind of, I’m going to make a statement here: it’s normal to kind of go through these waves of worry or anxiety or uncertainty about whether or not that will happen. We’re experiencing a very clear manufactured experience of that now, right, with tariffs. But even before that, you know, things like sales and clearance, for example, work for that reason.
Nicole
They work on me. Yeah.
Grace Oczon
They work on me too. That’s not a shame or blame you at all. I totally get it. it’s It’s effective and it causes us to, yeah, consume, to collect and then kind of find safety or comfort in knowing that just in case I have this just in case there’s a shortage or you know whereas like opposed to like abundance mindset where if we know we can get it I know that there will be you know apples in America I know that there will be apples so I’m not worried about that and not gonna afford that you know.
Nicole
Yeah. Yeah. So how would that look differently in different folks, like someone who immigrated recently or someone whose family has been in the same country for a generation or more? I’m more specifically speaking to that Asian American community, but it could apply to anyone who’s part of a diaspora. Does it look different? Does… Because what I see is I see it in my mom. I see scarcity mindset. And she is, she isn’t doesn’t have, she doesn’t need that. Yeah. For lack of a better way to put it, you know, she was a successful professional, was because, my goodness, she finally retired. Thank you. And she’s bored now. But, um but you know, came to America, 21 years old, single with her girlfriends to do nursing in I think it was a long-term care facility in Chicago.
And, you know, coming from the Philippines, you know, I don’t, I didn’t get the sense that, I don’t get the sense that they didn’t have enough, but there were seven children and, and just a lot to go around. And my grandma was authoritarian and was like, you save this, you thrifty, so to speak.
Grace Oczon
Yeah
Nicole
But my mom, you know, I don’t, I don’t really know as her child, what her financial situation is, but I never felt like I was lacking for anything. And especially now she’s retired, no mortgage. Like she doesn’t need money but if I see in her and in myself like this desire to keep things I will say “Just in case” so can you speak to, you know, how that would look different for certain people and maybe without a full six to eight week therapy course, like maybe some tips for overcoming that, you know, because like because I think I feel like the advice is here’s what it is. Get over it, you know, and get over it, move on. You don’t need it. But like any other any tips just for us to be gentle with ourselves and how do we talk to ourselves to combat this?
Grace Oczon
Yes. Totally. Those are great questions. I think that a word that comes to mind, even as you were talking, is resourcefulness. And that’s such a critical quality for first, second gen immigrants who don’t have resources for, to be quite frank, like family money to rely on, right? Whatever the next generations have to work with, both in terms of like material goods and safety net, and even mindset and culture, like subculture of the family. Those start with like that the first gen or the immigrant that moves to start the family here is creating and crafting all of that on the fly. That’s all survival, right?
Nicole
Yeah, yeah.
Grace Oczon
And so, there isn’t kind of an established baseline of like, what is enough? How do I know my children, my children’s children will be safe under these ever-changing conditions of a place that we don’t have we don’t have any more than what I have established here for them. That is a very clear starting point, which is so much pressure. I can’t And I’m saying that as someone who is not the one who immigrated to this country like I can’t even imagine what that burden feels like.
Nicole
Yeah
Grace Oczon
And of course, like it’s a labor of love to do that, but there’s so much uncertainty there . I don’t know what is enough, but I know I will keep doing my best. I’ll do the best and the most that I can.
And that’s it’s such a different conversation from that versus someone who has, yeah, family money and then also like inherited belongings that have value, that continue to accumulate values in some cases, right? If we’re talking about like heirlooms or even really anything, stuff, stuff that has been here and that knows here that and it just implies too that there’s more connections, there’s more like sense of belonging here, all of which can be reinforced by the stuff that we hold on to and that we keep and within the circles of trust that we have.
And so even just I think even just saying that loud again, it doesn’t get old to me, to be honest, to think about about that. And you don’t sound like you’re lacking in compassion for your mom at all, but it sounds like too that you want to almost like, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you want maybe some freedom for her or a little bit less of that burden of mitigating that risk of safety for herself or for you guys. I imagine that’s what you’re kind of feeling underneath that.
Nicole
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that’s learned behavior on my part in terms of my struggles with just in case and and keeping things and letting go.
Grace Oczon
Yeah. And I think even just reminding ourselves that we’re having, it doesn’t mean, I’m not trying to, I guess, like promote like an adversarial or a combative kind of relationship to white folks. But what what I am suggesting is that it really is a more complicated and it is a different conversation to be having within our sub-communities or our own communities about belongings and cluttering, collecting clutter, decluttering.
I know that the conversation too gets more complicated. I don’t know if there are other immigrant groups that experience this, but I know for Filipino folks, we have but like balikbayan boxes. So as much as my mom was a queen of decluttering in our home growing up, it was because everything that we weren’t making use of could be useful to someone else back home.
Grace Oczon
And she was the only sibling.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
She was the eldest, and then she was the only sibling to come here from the Philippines.
Nicole
A lot of pressure.
Grace Oczon
And so lot of pressure and then a lot of siblings. So she had eight eight families that would benefit from stuff that we weren’t using. So it was I remember growing up though thinking it was a little challenging because I didn’t really, she’s from Mindanao, right? So they speak a dialect of Visayah. They don’t speak Tagalog as comfortably as the national language. And so even growing up here and not really being exposed to their to that language that my family speaks, there was, and just didn’t really connect with them a lot. And so, of course, I love them in the sense that you love your family, but I also love these headbands that I’ve been wearing. And yeah, maybe I got glasses um and I can’t wear them anymore, but what if I get contacts and I want to wear them again?
Please don’t send them home. I don’t, you know, like, what if I haven’t used them in three months or six months, then they’re going in the box because someone else could use them tomorrow.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
And while that makes a ton of sense to the kid in me, or makes a ton of sense as an adult, but as a kid, I was like, oh, but please, I really liked that headband. It’s plastic. It has stupid, fake little diamonds and flowers, but it was mine and I really liked it.
Or, you know, really anything I’d grow out of, I’d be like, oh, but I liked it. You know, and so… there was a level of like managing responsibility to, to others that I didn’t, wasn’t really praised or encouraged or something I could relate to with friends here that weren’t Filipino, but it was so important to the family to do that.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
And of course, to make use of like, if you’re not making use of it, then someone else could. So the guilt that comes along with that, there’s like, you know, So there are so many layers to this conversation too. And then, like the chocolate like chocolate as an example too, even, right? Like if I’m not enjoying, I don’t know if you guys have experience with this, but we would buy bars and bars and bags of Dove chocolate and Dove soap actually. They would really want Dove products and make specific requests.
Grace Oczon
And then like the clothes, even like from the thrift stores that were here were better quality once they could get back home.
Nicole
Yeah
Grace Oczon
And so, Yeah, all of that plays into the conversation as well. But then I also, you know, on the other side of that, totally have friends, very close friends, whose parents did collect here. And like, they would still send by, like, balikbayan boxes. But even here… we would be accumulating and navigating that conversation of, oh, my mom is collecting a lot of things. Like, at what point is this something I have to be worried about? Because Americans would look at this and think it’s shameful.
But there’s a level of like, you know, survival associated with the just in case that means something different than the survival of folks who don’t have to maintain generations of families here. Does this make sense? Do know what I mean?
Nicole
It does. Yeah, it does to me. and And I’m hoping that for our listeners that some of this resonates with you. And if it’s new to you, that that we’re making we were making sense. um that would like
Grace Oczon
Yeah.
Nicole
And we are. I think part of the onus for our podcast is to to uplift Asian stories in the sewing community. And I think this is an important perspective because all of us at some point, many of us at some point, will deal with clutter or, you know, overwhelm of supplies. I think it’s the nature of the crafter. You know, the, we get excited and we see something and we want to make it and we, we get the thing and then time is a resource that we don’t always have. And then space is a resource we don’t always have. So I think that and is a universal conversation, but I hope that our listeners can, you know, take away like number one, Be gentle with yourself if you’re feeling these things, you know. For me, unveiling and understanding that there are these different considerations, that it is as deep. It doesn’t have to be deep, but it is that deep.
Grace Oczon
Yeah.
Nicole
It’s always like the first step to, you know, maybe overcoming it and doing that like gentle self-talk. Like I honor all of this and then, you know, being able to make your decision from there. Because I guess, you know, this conversation came from the desire to declutter and I still want to do it and it’s still necessary for my home. But I’m also taking away that like, hey, if it’s going to take time and you need to like process what you want to keep, it’s okay if you want to keep that sentimental piece, you know, of a fabric or, you know, the, I found my grandma used to crochet, my mom’s mom. And when I was really little, I remember her crocheting when I was really little.
But in the last two, three years, we found like a box of my grandma’s crochet stuff and it was lace crochet. It wasn’t like the um it was like what went over our piano, like to cover the piano.
Grace Oczon
Yeah.
Nicole
And then I still have the spools of thread, but I’m like, what am I going to do with it? I’m like, well, I don’t have to do anything. I could keep it for now, maybe in however long I can, you know, from now I can let go of it. Maybe I can make something with it. But I think having this conversation that we’re having today, and gives me grace to move through this process without feeling like I need to rush it And something that you had just said about, you know, to an American, this would be shameful. And that to me is like, really, that was really powerful to hear because I think that again, tells me that I am trying to fit into an aesthetic potentially of some kind.
And that’s it, it’s more desirable if it comes from me instead of me trying to adapt or adapt to someone else’s personality, lifestyle, life circumstances, history, you know, mental health, that type of thing. It’s been really, really insightful conversation.
Grace Oczon
Totally.
Nicole
I want to touch on a couple of specific like topics of guilt, just because these are the things that I’ve heard the folks talk about. And one of them is financial guilt. And you know, crafting is money you know it just it is. Someone the other day was like is it cheaper to sell your own clothes i was like no.
Grace Oczon
What?
Nicole
No maybe back in the day when like ready to wear clothes were higher quality and like harder to get but So can you speak to the guilt that we experience from spending the money? And now that I’m saying it, maybe it is probably, it could be related to scarcity mindset, but it also doesn’t necessarily have to be, I assume.
Grace Oczon
No. Yeah, I think there’s also something so, um like, in terms of that conversation with the part that’s kind of assessing that financial I’m going to say loss, right? Or like the cost that you’re in, like the investment.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
I want to avoid sunk cost. I want to make the most of and make this, like make this resource useful because I invested x amount of effort, money, whatever, right? That’s a pretty reasonable conversation to have, right? And so I think I guess at the risk of sounding or of beating this mentality into this conversation, I would want to know, like, what is the part of me that’s reaching for that perspective, right? Is it like a part that’s yeah afraid that if I waste this thing, then I will feel this I do see actually often. If I don’t make use of this now, then I’ll regret it, right? That fear of like, if I regret it, then and I kind of invite folks to finish that sentence of like, what, then what? Like, if I feel regret or if I feel the guilt or the shame of having, quote unquote, wasted x amount of investment, then what, right? Because that’s, it ultimately might feel as though we feel powerless to that emotion or it’s going to only reproduce maybe like this wound or it’s going to point out or pick at this scab over the wound of shame that already exists inside me. So it’s only, it’s going to hurt more and I don’t want to experience that. And that’s so, so fair and understandable. And, that is something that we can do something about. Like it doesn’t have to feel so disempowering to think that like, if I messed up or if i if I make a, even like a financial mistake or if it’s something that I, it’s almost like ammo for the meanest parts of me to make me feel like shit all over again, right?
When I’m particularly vulnerable and I don’t want to give that part ammo. So if I can mitigate that now by making use of this, then hopefully I won’t, right? Like shit on myself in the future as often and I’ll be happier and better. And in reality, like we actually have more kind control or we can have more control and choices in that conversation because we doesn’t have to feel like so much is at stake with a relationship with ourselves, right? That’s such a, I’m so glad that we got here because that is a much deeper conversation than just, can I let this thing go? Or can I just accept that I made a bad call here? or Or a call that was right at the time and isn’t right anymore. And that led to a financial loss in some way or a loss of time or whatever.
And if that, if we know that that’s going to lead to shame or, or yeah, I guess like compounding shame and future shame, then it’s going to feel like
Nicole
Like shit.
Grace Oczon
almost inevitable. Yeah, it’s gonna feel like shit and then like inevitable shit. But if I know that I can, if I can kind of combat that rigidity with some resiliency, right? Can i can I create a kind of system inside or a relationship with myself that can accommodate mistakes or you or fuck-ups, as every human does, right?
That’s such a part of the human experience. And yet, as I will die on this hill, perfectionism is one of the characteristics of white supremacy culture. It’s encouraged. It’s reproduced, especially in girls and women and especially in immigrants who want to adapt or who need to adapt to American culture. Perfectionism gets us forward.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
It’s a useful thing for survival. And here’s where it causes us harm, right? When it teaches us to relate to ourselves in such, what’s this word like self flagellating ways it’s it’s harmful emotionally to ourselves right and and that’s something that we can absolutely disrupt and work on letting go and then also in the process of cultivating that self-compassion. It’s a generative experience where we can practice that self-compassion now and then I’m gonna fuck up again and then feel like shit and then shit on myself again and i it’s another opportunity to kind of disrupt that with with that compassion piece.
I’m also realizing I didn’t answer any of your questions about practical advice. To your point, that is my most practical advice is by introducing that kind of language when we talk to ourselves um and that patience for sure. Like, can I let go of some of the expectations of how long it takes to declutter or
Nicole
Mmhmm.
00:54:38.43
Grace Oczon
how long I am staying cluttered even.
Nicole
Yeah
Grace Oczon
But I actually do have a practical piece of advice as well in that if I’m wanting this to have meaning in some way, even if I can’t recover maybe the financial loss of some kind of investment, can I can i think of other ways to make meaning here? Is this an opportunity to like organize a swap or or think about the folks who may have a relationship to this thing that I’m no longer willing to pick up and continue?
Can I use it to almost further reinforce our relationship? And can it have meaning in that way? If it doesn’t have meaning for me, I can celebrate that it will have meaning for you and then celebrate your wins in the future, right? And almost in that way, like reclaim, I guess, the value of that, but just it doesn’t have to be financial.
Nicole
That’s really solid advice. And so I’m thinking, you know, the takeaway with particularly combating or, you know, dealing with the financial loss. And I see it that way. I see it. I get, I really do. I just, I’m like, man, I spent so much money on this. I don’t have a lot of money, you know, but I like what you said about making meaning.
Grace Oczon
Yeah.
Nicole
I think a lot of folks are just like, just get rid of it. It’ll be fine. And I’m like, well, maybe that’s part of it. Maybe that could be part of your, the meaning that you get out of it. But for me, I do need to feel purpose in it sometimes. Maybe I need to financially recover it or it has to go to somebody who will enjoy it. And I think that that’s okay. But, and the other side of me is there’s only, you know, I can do that for a while. And then if that doesn’t work, and after I’ve tried to soothe that part of me, then maybe I will start talking to myself about being able to gently let something go.
So something that’s important is like timeline. I think, I think time, time is such a, like, you know, I think I need to be doing this. Oh, and there are so many decluttering videos. I decluttered my house in three days and I’m like, First of all, yeah, that is a lot.
Grace Oczon
Yeah.
Nicole
But, you know, I guess something I can do for myself is, is you know, remind myself that I i don’t have a timeline and and then ask, like, what are my goals? and And am I am I doing it for myself or am I trying to fit this mold that we’re talking about? That was really practical advice. I was actually already gathering practical advice for our conversation, thanks for drawing a specific point out at the end. I think one other thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, one, two things, Number one, the other thing I want to talk about is gift guilt, where someone has given you something. For example, this is a pure hypothetical because he didn’t do this, but you know my grandpa would, let’s say he bought me a yard of fabric and he’s since passed like three years ago.
Nicole
And the yard of fabric is not my color, not my substrate, not anything I want to do with it, but It’s his and he gave it to me and he, you know, so dealing with that clutter and when I see dealing, I don’t necessarily mean declutter because I know that that might, that’s okay if if I want to keep that for however long I want to keep.
And then the second question is like a softball, but I just want to tee it up for you. Like, what are your thoughts on Marie Kondo? Sparking joy to declutter but let’s talk about gifts first.
Grace Oczon
Got it. OK.
Nicole
Like what is Can we explore a little bit of you know why gifts generate guilt and just anything practical for our listeners to like how do we talk to each other ourselves rather about dealing with this.
Grace Oczon
Totally, totally. Gifts make a ton of sense that they would generate some guilt, right? Because I have a, I feel a sense of responsibility to kind of retain and continue the meaning that was already made by this gift giving, right? It was such a thoughtful, meaningful thing that happened. And you know, I want to respect and honor that person who did that for me. I think similarly, there’s a couple ways that we can go about this, right? Similarly to kind of our earlier conversation about, can I, can I do that? Can I find other ways to reassure that part that I can do that? I can still honor this person. I can respect and appreciate what they’ve done without feeling like it has to happen in this very specific way, whether it’s like retaining or me making use of this thing.
Nicole
Mm-hmm.
Grace Oczon
The the next suggestion also like obviously requires a little bit more of an investment but like can I commission like if it’s a fabric for example like can I either ask either ask of of like a loved one who would either want to I guess offer their services to make something useful out of that or like to have like to commission like to to I guess pay for someone’s services to make something useful out of it and then in that way like you know, whether it’s something that you would want to keep for yourself, you of have some kind of project commissioned. I’m being very vague because it depends on the craft, obviously.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
Or it’s like a tool, like a, like a crochet hook or um something or a machine of some kind. Similarly, like, is there someone that I know that would make, would appreciate the value and also make meaning out of this experience better than I could? And then like, if I’m generating that kind of experience, facilitating that kind of experience for someone that i also really care about, then it can, it is like a special way to still honor that experience without feeling it has to, like that person or I have to have full control over what exactly that kind of respect can look like, right? Can I let go of some of those expectations of what it means to be to honor that practice and can I, yeah, can I, can I be a little flexible and a little creative even as to how I can do that? And I think I’ve, those are the only ones that come to mind, but I’m sure that other folks or you might even have some other, you know, creative inspiration for how, how someone can do that. But I think the larger point is to let go of the rigidity that can come along with that, you know?
Nicole
Yeah. One thing that has helped me is I’m a volunteer sewing instructor at a place called Partners for Our Community, which is in Palatine, which is a suburb of Chicago. And they have a full, fully, I’ve talked about it podcast a couple of times, but like full, the studio is all donations. It’s all fabric, which all of us have too much of anyway. And you know, something that I have found fulfilling is taking the fabric and donating it. And even if I don’t see what they make, knowing about their projects, knowing what they do, how they teach, you know, people in the community who are primarily low income, you know, how to sew that, that the fabric or the, whatever it is will be used. Even if, you know, it will be used by someone else for a good thing. Even if I never know what it was made, what was made with it.
Grace Oczon
Mm-hmm.
Nicole
It’s cut up for scraps or used as a scrap, you know, piece of fabric. But for me, and again, speaking like from my experience, and I and I tell this story like it’s what happens all the time and is what’s easy. This is just like a specific thing for me. I’ve definitely struggled getting rid of stuff. But like…
You know, knowing that that piece of fabric my grandpa gave me, the hypothetical piece of fabric that my grandpa gave me will go to teaching someone, you know, will go to making a difference, making meaning in that person’s life, even if it’s not making something, you know, like even if it’s a, you know, poorly crafted thing that can’t be used, but what they took from it is how to thread a machine. What they took from it is how to, you know, what needle is right for it.
Grace Oczon
Absolutely. yeah
Nicole
So that for me is, and I only just thought of that. See, this is like therapy.
Grace Oczon
No, that’s really special. And I also, even as you’re saying that too, I’m thinking about the times that I’ve, I, you know, as a student had been like really reliant on places like the Waste Shed or any other, right?
Nicole
Yes.
Grace Oczon
Or like any other like thrift store in order to make or craft at the time that I really needed to connect with creativity. And so I like to make up stories sometimes now when I’m donating of like, you know, this would be so even yeah I’m not going to know where this is going to go. But I do know that there that someone could potentially really appreciate this. Like, what could that look like? What might they make? Or what would they feel like even just finding this thing there for such a discounted price? Like, that’s so special to think about being a part of. So I love that example, too. I didn’t even think about that for education spaces.
Nicole
Yeah, and just um it is enough for me. And I’m not fully there yet, but in this hypothetical situation, and because it’s hypothetical, acknowledging that it’s hypothetical, and I don’t know if I would do it. But you know um that would make meaning for me. And I’m really holding on to the make meaning part of it, and you know this entire conversation that we’re having, because I think for me, that was like the missing piece.
Grace Oczon
Hmm.
Nicole
I feel like I need to make meaning and it’s financial, it’s a gift, it’s some other tie. You know, but what will allow me to let these things go? If in fact, I want to, if I want to keep my grandpa’s one yard of fabric or my grandma’s crochet supplies, then no shame in that, you know.
Grace Oczon
Absolutely not.
Nicole
And maybe I will let go of it one day, but it doesn’t have to happen now. You know, I think it’s the, and and if you can no longer find meaning, you know, kind of like sitting with it and then like honoring it and then letting it go and I wonder, so this kind of leads me to my last sort of substantive question.
Grace Oczon
Yes.
Nicole
and so What are your thoughts on the Marie Kondo method of sparking joy to declutter? I will say I will preface this with, I tried to listen to the audio book many years ago to get inspired and I didn’t finish the first chapter because I felt so guilty about like my current situation. I literally didn’t finish it. I was like, was like, no, I can’t. I can’t relate to this. I feel like this is making me feel worse.
Grace Oczon
Yeah
Nicole
So I just abandoned it. So I mean, like, to the extent that you’re familiar with Marie Kondo’s method, like, what are your thoughts?
Grace Oczon
I’m really glad you prefaced with that context because my context is that I’ve never read the book. I didn’t watch any of the videos. I didn’t participate in the phenomenon at the time, but even hearing you say that is helpful because I think it’s twofold how I feel about that as a practice.
I think it’s so special and beautiful, but there was a moment, a cultural moment, where we were all invited to like listen to our bodies and like let that be kind of you know the guiding principle for this decision making because I do think that can offer a lot of insight and wisdom in in those moments where we might have been instead taught to rely on like rational thought or whatever like whatever else was was encouraged in that in that experience of decluttering. But the sparking joy i’m not sure how she kind of facilitated that from what i understand it it’s it’s an instinct thing. And so love that. Love the concept and the idea. I think there’s something, yeah, a little limiting about joy being the only, I guess, emotion or experience that’s part of that process.
And I actually really do think this is connected to the conversation we’ve been having because, like, let’s say maybe this doesn’t spark joy for me, but you know what it does bring up? Yeah, is guilt or it brings up some dread even sometimes, right? Or better yet, more than one thing comes up. It’s just uncomfortable though. It’s complex and uncomfortable and I don’t like it. And if it’s not joy, then it’s not useful. It’s kind of maybe the underbelly of what I imagine this practice could be.
Nicole
Mm-hmm.
Grace Oczon
And so I would, I would, I think that maybe expanding that would be useful to be like, well, what is my body saying? If it’s not saying it’s bringing me joy, but instead it’s bringing me dread and guilt and fear of uncertainty, then like, what does that mean then? Like, what conversation am I having? And I think that it can be helpful to lean into the body’s responses if we’re not always so familiar with, maybe I can’t pick out the emotion that’s coming out, but I know that my my like um my my chest is tight or my belly’s a little you know uneasy or and getting a tingle down my arms that that feels nerve wracking more than exciting.
Nicole
Yeah
Grace Oczon
And if you know maybe I don’t know what those feelings are called, but if I can start to familiarize myself with that feeling, then I can maybe become more familiar with the part of me that’s activated. And this is a little more therapy-like. But what if who is that part then? What is that part kind of sensitive to and responsive to? What does it mean? What is it telling me? What does it represent? What needs does it want to meet for me? And is it trying to meet those needs in ways that are useful and helpful to me right now? And if not, then what can I can i learn from just listening? And then what kind of compassion can I offer in this moment so that we can be more clear about what my body is telling me about what I need.
Does that make sense?
Nicole
Yeah, it does. And I think this is because I’ve been in therapy. Let me tell you, the feelings wheel is so important.
Grace Oczon
My God, I love it.
Nicole
So for those who don’t know, yeah just Google it. I don’t want to spend a ton of time on it, but it helped me understand. I think the way that we often see ourselves and and how we feel things is really limiting sometimes to the point where if, if you ask me how this coffee cup makes me feel because it was my grandpa’s like, people will maybe default to like one of five emotions, right? and But this wheel is a whole lot of other words to help us pick out the emotion. Like you could you could be feeling like anger and guilt, you know, you could be feeling sadness or you could are you feeling wistful instead?
Grace Oczon
Mmhmm.
Nicole
Like, you know, it’s a really helpful thing. And, you know, for the I think what really was like, nope, can’t do this for Marie Kondo is like, Does it spark joy? No, it’s gone. And I’m like, I don’t know what that means. And the answer is going to be no for everything, you know, and it felt too limiting.
And it felt like I just really could not, it just didn’t resonate with me. And the thing is, throughout this entire podcast, you know, we’re discussing, you know, complex scenarios and emotions that do, can occur in all of us. But if you’re totally cool, with the sparking joy, getting rid of it. If you’re like, I don’t feel anything for this. It’s gone. More power to you, man. I, uh, more power to you, my friend.
Grace Oczon
Right.
Nicole
I am just not, this podcast is, is for people like me and for people who want to understand people like me. Well, with that, thank you so much, Grace, for joining us today. It was really great chat. I wish this was much longer, but, you know, people should be paying you for your therapeutic time. um So we really appreciate it. And just any last thoughts or.
Grace Oczon
No, I’m so thankful that you invited me here to have this conversation.
Nicole
Yeah.
Grace Oczon
And I do feel like so much personal connection too, because I’m really getting into netting these days or back into netting these days. um And so I’m having this conversation more often. So I think you um asking me to provide this perspective was really helpful for me too. So thank you. this was a two way street.
Nicole
We really appreciate you.
Grace Oczon
Thanks.
Ada
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Asian Sewist Collective podcast If you like our show, please consider supporting us on coffee by becoming a one-time or monthly supporter or by buying our sewing labels. Your financial support helps us with our overhead expenses. The link to our coffee page is KO-FI .com Asian Sewist Collective and you can find the link in our show notes on our website and on our Instagram account. Check us out on Instagram at Asian Sewist Collective. That’s one word Asian Sewist Collective. You can also help us out by spreading the word and telling your friends We would also appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast
Nicole
All of the links and resources mentioned in today’s episode will be in the show notes on our website That’s Asian Sewist Collective.com and we’d love to hear from you Email us with your questions comments or even voice messages if you want to be featured on future episodes at Asian Sewist Collective@ gmail.com. Thank you so much to the other members of our collective who made this episode a reality. This is the Asian Sewist Collective podcast and we’ll see you next time.